Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey everyone.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: Welcome back to Rewildology. I am your host, Brooke Mitchell. And oh my gosh, do I have an incredible in between or so for you. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Rosa Espinoza and she is just amazing.
Rosa grew up navigating the Amazon rainforest, high altitude mountains and modern cities in Peru. And now she's a PhD scientist doing groundbreaking research in chemical biology to understand the wonders of the Amazon jungle.
She just wrote an inspiring book called the Spirit of the How Indigenous Wisdom and Scientific Curiosity Reconnects Us to the Natural World and I have devoured every single page. Rosa has this incredible way of weaving together her personal journey with these beautiful stories about traditional indigenous knowledge and cutting edge research.
In this conversation we talk about everything from her groundbreaking work with stingless bees. And yes, I had never heard of stingless bees before reading this book and.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: They are so freaking cool.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: To how an ayahuasca experience led to her research on animal self medication.
We'll dive into why everyone on this planet is connected to the Amazon. How indigenous knowledge is inspiring new scientific discoveries and the wonderful concept of living beautifully.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: That hit me so hard.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: And even more excitingly, this book launches today in the U.S. if you're in the UK, you've already been able to.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Get your hands on the book and.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: It'S available everywhere in audiobook and digital download formats. This book is also our current read for the Rewatology Book Club. So grab the book and join if you haven't already. If you you can register at the website through the book club page.
Before we jump in, I wanted to quickly mention that we still have spaces available on our Patagonia expedition in April 2026.
So if you've been dreaming of experiencing Patagonia for yourself, definitely check that out.
All right everyone, let's dive in to today's conversation with Rosa Espinosa.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Hi rza. It is so wonderful to see you again. I am so excited to go through your beautiful book. I enjoyed every single page and I'm so honored to be part of the US launch for your awesome book. But before we get into all of it, because I mean girl, do you see how many tabs I have? We have like so many tabs here. I like I'm a taver and there's so many topics that I would love to chat with you about.
But before we get to that, I would love to go back in time to like when you were a little girl and you were in the Amazon.
When and why did you decide to do what you're doing today.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: First of all, thank you for having me. So it's wonderful to chat with you. I know you just came back from a trip as well and. Yeah, I'm just so in awe of what you do as well and all the stories you're helping elevate. I'm so excited to see the different marks you've done. Thank you so much for, for reading the book.
If we go back in time. So I, I had what I now realize is, is a unique upbringing. Of course in the moment I just saw it as that is how we live life of navigating between the Amazon forest, the high altitude mountains as well as the city.
So going from cultivating potatoes in the high mountains, to going to school in just a modern city like any other big city out there, to going into navigating the Amazon river in small traditional boats that felt like a Disney ride for me. That was such normal experiences of me growing up, which is kind of wild. And I don't think I necessarily ever thought while I was a child like I'm going to come back to the Amazon forest and study the lesser known organisms. I, I think I just had so much space to have fun in nature. I had just so much joy every time I was outdoors. For me it was a moment of just play, of wonder, of just very freely ask a resilient questions. And I think by virtue of me seeing my own family interact with the different natural elements, I just had such an ingrained interest and curiosity and respect. Whether that is from asking permission to the river when people are going fishing, to asking to saying thank you to the land where you're opening, you know, the ground to get potatoes out, to talking to flowers before you grab some leaves or roots to make some sort of medicinal cocktail. So I think my curiosity for how things worked out there was always there. And it manifested in different ways. When the first way manifested was actually not even biology or chemistry, it was in physics. When I, when I was six, I decided I was going to be an astronaut because I thought it was fascinating to see how like the night kind of came about in the city. We never really can see all the stars, but every time I would be in the mountain or in the jungle we could and so I was so fascinated. So I think it was just through a lot of questions and then over time then that just kind of turning in. Actually I'm not the best of physics, but biology comes so natural to me. And no wonder if I've seen my grandmother work with all these medicinal resources to make you know, cocktails to help us when we were ill, and me having so many questions about it.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: And so then you end up leaving the Amazon to study science.
So what was that journey like? When did you, like, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to leave my home, I'm going to go pursue this path. Why did you decide that? And also, what did you end up focusing on? Because you have your PhD, you have like, all the science.
Like, what was that journey like for you?
[00:06:08] Speaker C: So I was, when I was already, I think maybe around 14, 15, 16, and I was already doing, you know, multiple science classes in school. We had an experience with my classroom to go into another part of the Amazon to do geography and biology research. And again, this is, you know, very high school level. It was about measuring the water volume and comparing some animals behaving differently with certain plants and whatnot. And I, that was the first time that in my head I was like, wow, you can do science, like in the jungle? That is insane. And I started to wonder what that science look like because nobody in my family was a scientist. And so the first thing that I learned about was laboratory. So I said, well, I want to learn what laboratories we have in Peru throughout the city, the capital city, as well as throughout the Amazon. And I did started to actually, I told my mom, I'm going to save all my money and I'm going to start traveling around Peru. Bye. Then she was like, well, you're not going to go alone. You're 15. And so she's kind of just started to come with me. And so every time I had a chance, I was going to different places. And I just remember seeing, seeing how poorly maintained and equipped most of them were. Unfortunately, it has changed extensively. I'm talking to, you know, 17 years ago, maybe. Yeah, 17 years ago. And so it just kind of made me wonder and understand where then can you conduct, you know, these science things that I could read about already when I was starting to learn English, I was reading about all these advanced progress we were doing in research. And so I kind of had to make the choice that I needed to look for how to train abroad. And I started to look at universities and scholarships and study really hard to get all my grades on. And I was able to land the scholarship to study at the time under the Department of Biology, Molecular Biology, because it seemed, at least from the little I knew at the moment, that that encompassed like a lot of things about the natural world, about the human body. It was just quite free.
And so I said, well, that's what I want to study, whatever that meant in the moment. I just wanted to get into a laboratory.
And eventually when I started, within the first year, I fell in love with the concept of chemistry so much that I decided to add it as a second bachelor degree, focus on biochemistry and starting to kind of wonder about the chemistry and the biology behind plants. And, you know, that triggering a lot of me looking back at how I grew up as well.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Did you have a lot of culture shock when you left?
[00:08:53] Speaker C: So I went to Tennessee as my. The where I did an undergrad. So I went from Peru to a small town in Tennessee.
And I just remember when I was telling people about that move before I actually did it, they were asking me if I was going to see cowboys or what was I going to be eating. And you know, the things that you kind of just seem to be about sororities and fraternities. It was. If I was going to Jones, I had no idea what to expect.
And I think cultural shock in minor senses. I was. I was such a. Such a young. I was still so young. I was 18. So everything was just kind of new. I was just excited to kind of get started. I remember something as simple in a social aspect of how we say hi in Peru, you know, with the keys or with a hug, even if you don't know anyone. And then trying to. To do that in the US and getting people, you know, responses as to like, why are you coming so close to me? And be like, oh, sorry. Or even never saying my name in a different way. I always say Rosa with the, you know, the rolling of the R. Not anyone understanding what I meant. So I had to switch to Rosa.
Very silly things like that.
And I don't think the main shock came right away. It was, I think, progressive as I understood.
As I dive and immerse more into the Western living and way of work and the way science as well approach questions that I started to be much more aware of the differences of what we call a living system or what we determine. It's real science versus no, I am going to put that aside. And I actually unfortunately saw a lot of parallelism with how even countries like Peru in the major cities, they view traditional knowledge where it's like, oh no, that you find in the market, you know, that is for that when secretly a lot of people do still use it.
So, yeah, I think it was definitely adapting to a language that was not my first. And my English was definitely not. Not that good when I first moved.
But I was. I Remember the first day of college, I was so committed that I went there to go to a laboratory that in my first science class, which was zoology, at the end of the class, I stayed until everyone had left and I asked the professor, I want to be in a laboratory, how do I do that? Didn't even know exactly what I wanted to work. And so they just kind of took me to the first lab that had openings for undergrads.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Wow, that is awesome.
It's like, like, I hear you, you're ambitious. Let's do it. That is awesome. I love those moments like that as professors where they just like see that spark in one of their students and they're like, absolutely, let's, let's do this.
[00:11:38] Speaker C: I think I, I do. You know, I am so grateful for those moments. I don't take it for granted. And I try to make time to any young person that comes and approaches, even if like the schedule may be crazy because that professor could have easily said, it is your first day of undergrad, chill out, you know, complete your degrees and come up. But no, he said, are you open for any research? And I said, anything, just take me in a laboratory. And I was also, of course, very just open minded in that sense. And they took me to the microbiology department and they took me seriously, although I had zero experience, you know, I was not studying microbiology degree. And I have had similar experiences with people throughout the Amazon. Of me coming as a young person knowing nothing but just saying, I want to learn more because I hope to do, do this at some point and then just taking the time to, you know, go over things with me or telling me things, what to read. I am so grateful for that because I think it made me think that things were possible even though I felt so young. And I never let go of that feeling, you know?
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
You gave a little hint earlier about the topic of your book and I would love to switch gears to this incredible book you wrote called the Spirit of the Rainforest. How Indigenous Wisdom and Scientific Curiosity Reconnects Us to the Natural World. And after reading your book, it is like, oh yeah, girl, after reading your book is like the perfect, it's like that's the perfect title for how you so well blended all of these topics together.
I think first though, especially just like when I think of writing a book. What was your inspiration for a book book? There is like so many different ways you could have told this story.
So why did you decide to write it down in black and white paper form?
[00:13:27] Speaker C: That's a great question. I haven't had that question asked.
I mean, I secretly have.
I've written stories since I am.
Since I can remember, actually, since probably I'm five or six.
Because I have something that I think I'm sure some people can relate. Sometimes it is hard for me to put what I am feeling into like spoken words or to even process them. Sometimes it takes me like a day or two to even understand what I'm feeling or like if I'm upset or if I'm, you know, in shock or happy. Sometimes it takes me a minute and I'm just. I experience emotions in slightly different ways than to a lot of people. And so I think that the written word has always been the way that I teach myself. What is it that I am thinking, truly and feeling? And because I would find that as a kid that if I wrote something down, I didn't even know what I was writing and suddenly I understood what I was feeling. And so for me it has been such a deeper way to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. How is it that I want to continue moving forward and just kind of find even hidden meaning between some of the things that sometimes come to my head. And so I think I've always just been fascinated by the written word because it was many books, the ones that even allow me to dream of science, many books that even allow me to dream of space and what that means to the flora or the microbes in our planet.
One of the most powerful ways just to connect in a longer format of engaging as well. Especially nowadays, the attention spam is actually shrinking, which we all know about, but it is having biological consequences in the shape of the brain as well. Like the prefrontal cortex is actually getting reduced in specific areas they interact with attention, which is wild. So I think for me it was just kind of a no brainer that I engage in social media and I find it fun. But just diving with nothing except me and my brain. And what has happened in the past over the last 10 years was just, I think the only way I could come to realize, wow, we've actually, we are doing what I one day may have done, you know, not annoyingly dreamt of.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think a lot of us, at least I know I am, and the reason why I have more of a long form podcast is we are seeking, we still want these deep dives. We want to understand, we want to put all the pieces together. Because yeah, social media might be entertaining, but with those little glimpses, you can't, you can't share the full picture. Like, you know, I've seen several of your videos, they're beautiful, they're awesome. But to understand the actual connection between these things that you talk about and you study and you love, it does require something like this. Like, you know, these chapters, these expeditions, how you're able to tie the traditional use of this plant with also the modern science with these, the people that you meet. It's like it's all so intertwined. And. Yeah, and your book conveys that really well.
And so I think the next question, to put this in a global concept, before we start getting into some of the more refined topics that you wrote about, one thing that you mentioned is that everybody on this planet, we are literally in need and connected to the Amazon.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Could you expand a little bit on that?
[00:16:50] Speaker A: So even if, because this is a global audience, I have people, I'm in the US like you are now in the uk, you're from Peru, we have people in Africa, Singapore, everywhere around the world listening. But we all are connected to the Amazon. How, how is that? How are we all connected to this amazing place?
[00:17:06] Speaker C: Thank you for starting that. Because I think most just think of the Amazon as this exotic place that, yes, harbors a lot of biodiversity and that's it. Cool. When in reality, so many more aspects than we even are aware of depend and are directly related or indirectly related to the Amazon rainforest from Alaska. Start with this question for anyone out there listening. Do you like coffee? Do you like chocolate? Do you like. There you go.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Yes, drinking my coffee right now.
[00:17:38] Speaker C: Do you like cheese? Do you like ice cream?
Do you like furniture? Do you like that your weather patterns are slightly ever so predictable?
Every aspect of our lives, from food to medicine to agriculture to cosmetics to clothing to energy to climate, are in one way or another connected to the Amazon rainforest. Those that love the ocean and, you know, enjoy to do water activities that also in a way is directly connected to the Amazon rainforest. Really kind of all the elements in my mind. So from, you know, the produce that the Amazon rainforest makes. There's even a recent discovery that dates back. The cultivation of cacao. What then becomes chocolate started in the Amazon Forest over 6,000 years ago. There's now, you know, solid proof to show that a lot of the coffee that we get globally does come from the high altitude Amazonia that we have.
There is a natural dye that it's a seed. It's called achiote. The scientific name is big saurellana and it's a small fruit when you open it, you have like 30 or so seeds, they're red. So if you've ever seen people kind of painted with the different face paints or different clothing, traditionally made, that is actually one of the most commonly used natural dyes globally.
So it's commonly used in cheese around the Northern hemisphere, in ice cream, even to dye salmon, to dye meat. So inadvertently, I am confident that most people watching this would have tried this native seed of the Amazon forest that is also used traditionally for cooking. It's, it's a great medicine for a lot of the local animals that we have.
And talking about climate.
So about 20% of the fresh water that feeds our oceans comes from the Amazonian forest. Because we have to kind of, if we look at the map, it connects from the Andes and then the water ends up kind of joining the different tributaries of the Amazon and then eventually goes into the ocean. And so there is such a constant movement, not just of water, but all the sediments and the different kind of components that move along, that are fitting what then impacts the current of our oceans, which then has impact on the weather patterns, on the rain, on tornadoes, on waves patterns as well. So even if you're in Australia or Europe or the United States, your weather directly is related to the Amazon forest. And so when we think about things like deforestation, oh, that's just impacting some life in the Amazon. No, it actually does impact even just the water availability and all of these long processes. So it's so many, and I'm not even getting into medicine, which is, you know, such a long deep dive as well from life saving medicines that I am confident at least one person, you know, is on or has been on comes from the Amazon forest. So to think that we are, you know, we, that we cannot engage with its protection and its regeneration, as well as understanding the damage is going through it is just absolutely, yeah, I, I don't think we can do that nowadays.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Right, yes. Such a great overview. Yeah. So even me just sitting in metropolitan area of Ohio just knowing that even my weather is affected by the Amazon. And the number of medicines that you listed, and I know that you had to pick only a certain number because the book has to have an ending at some point.
Traditional medicines that are now being used to do whatever it is that they are prescribed to do.
And actually I think that's the perfect segue. So there is a quote that I want to read you that I want to talk a lot about and so I'm just going to read it. It's from page 125 and chapter six by ayahuasca.
And it said, my focus was on studying the ecosystem around me. Yet the more deeply I integrated with the community, the more I realized that science originates from nature and that indigenous wisdom holds an unparalleled connection to plants and animals that modern science does not typically consider.
That is a very strong statement and like an amazing one. And I would love to get this into this concept further because I think that we need to understand this much more fundamentally across the scientists. Well, not even just sciences, sciences in general.
How did you reach this conclusion?
Because again, it's not taught in schools. Like, it's not. As someone who I have a lot of multiple science degrees and like science nowadays is so black and white. It's either this or this. Can you go out and do this experiment and answer this question and like, that's it. So how did you reach this conclusion of, you know, like, traditional knowledge, medicine use and modern science and why they need to be interlaced together?
[00:22:50] Speaker C: Wow. Yeah. Thank you for reading that quote and for pointing that out.
It's so complex. I'll start quite broad. Ever since the Industrial revolution, I think the focusing on a single thing became a priority. Someone needed to specialize on this one item instead of necessarily focusing on the whole system or thinking they're interdisciplinary. And that is what, you know, led to a lot of progress in certain ways to our society. And then I think ever since it has translated or kind of diffused into other areas of life, like education, where now, you know, it's very common for topics, science, economics, geography, art, to be taught, separate one another. And I think in a way it has also trickled down into scientific research, research which as APHD scientists I know we need to be very focused on the questions we are asking for something to lead to the precision of data inaccuracy that we need. I completely value that and I have, you know, led a lot of high impact scientific articles. I think there are, though, many questions that we are not asking or that I don't think we necessarily may even have the creativity to ask and not putting down the human mind, because our human mind is absolutely extraordinary. Look what we've been able to do in such a short period of time in the history of humans inhabiting this planet. But when I was deep into my PhD journey, I remember learning a lot about how molecules are made in our planet, okay? From things that you find in leaves, to soils, to the things you may consume, whatever. And there are certain rules under what how those molecules are Made based on energy, based on reactions, whatnot. And only certain elements connect in certain ways. That's what we learn for a long time for specific connections. It was believed that it's just not possible because all of our rules that have, you know, are grounded on a lot of data and study say so fine, until somebody made a discovery from nature that saw a completely new pattern that didn't even make sense according to the rules that we have. And suddenly you have a complete shift and groundbreaking discovery in science that originated from something that only nature has the capacity to do. And I can give you many examples like that. And I think when I started to look to reconnect with my own indigenous roots and the way that even our own people acquire traditional knowledge or understand animal behavior and patterns in ways that other experts couldn't and understand, or being able to know when it's going to be raining, or when is the best time to utilize this part of the plant. And, and not having a metric as to wait, let me know, how have they determined that? Because in all of these notes or papers, there's nothing about that. It just kind of started a question in my head, what else is it that we don't know? What else is it that we have put mental barriers around that we cannot even imagine exists because we cannot think of it?
And even in the. I'll tell you another example just because I think it really exemplifies it too.
We all now know what PCR is because we needed to get tested for Covid, right? Everybody learned about the word pcr. Major discovery in science that really revolutionized many things. Of course, an example it being testing for Covid.
The reason we have PCR is because of a unique extreme microbe that could live where nothing else could.
And it was in the.
Somewhere in the early 1900s, 1950s, if I remember correctly, that a scientist saw a goo of pink in the Yellowstone National Parks in boiling acidic waters and wonder, could that be life? But if you look at the science at that point, everybody made fun of that person because they were like, no, we know the limits of life and life cannot sustain after a certain temperature because it will be nature DNA, blah, blah, blah. And yet here is nature telling you something else for those that are ready to listen. And of course, then that led to the discovery of a unique microbe that led to one of the key components to allow for PCR to happen.
So I think we just don't know everything. And we sometimes forget that as humans we have progressed so much in our society, we think we know it all. We think we know better. We think we know better than those living in these hot biodiversity spots. We think we know better than the plants and the animals.
Even the fact that only recently are people convinced that talk, that trees can talk to each other through, you know, fungal networks below something that has existed for millennia in our planet. That's how life evolved.
It just makes me wonder why are we not opening more space for or indigenous knowledge to inspire more questions to guide us into doors we perhaps would never even consider that could get us closer, not just to understand and study science, but to find ways to protect it, to find ways to also help humanity back.
Yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Oh yes. Such. Such a great passionate response. I love it. And I mean, you wrote so many great examples in your book, but does one come to mind where this happened for you? Where maybe I have a question about this later on.
The amazing woman in your life, your grandmother and what she meant to you and all that kind of stuff.
But do you have an example where your indigenous roots, or talking with your grandmother or talking with these amazing cultures that you've had a chance to work directly with, did they, working with them actually go the other way and steer a science question? You're like, oh my gosh, like, this is like a.
I loved all the cultural things that you have as well. These deities and everything.
Did that happen for you the other way?
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a beautiful way. So you are talking about like observationals or like the traditional knowledge inspiring something else in science, Is that what you're asking?
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: So so often from your background. Yeah, so so often.
I think something that my grandmother would always, she never really could explain it, but I would always see her using very meticulously different parts of a single plant for different purposes. So it was the leaf for this, the roots for this other, or changing the concentrations or combining things in a specific way. You only use this other seed in this time of the year or, or this other resource combined with this other one. And I think that has always led, I always had that in mind to understand how is it that the chemistry is splitting between these different parts of a plant that is leading to a different effect according at least to what she is observing? And I think that led me throughout my PhD to wonder about, okay, is it just the chemistry within a plant or is it also the microbes that perhaps are accumulating at different parts within a plant that are given a certain properties? And that led me, for example, to some of the work we were looking to answer during my PhD in the boiling river that I think I talk about in the. At least I talk about the space at least in chapter two, to understand that the microbes that accumulate solely in the roots of plants living in this extreme place are the ones that are giving them the capacity to sustain temperatures that most plants in the world wouldn't be able to. And then kind of trying to ask, should we be looking at those microbes? Should we understand that soil composition? You know, And I that really kind of came a lot by remembering what my grandmother, how I would see her interact. Another more recent experience that really has even shifted some of the not shifted has open up new new doors into projects that we've just started. And I think it may be chapter 11.
But it was through an ayahuasca experience that I became a Black Jawer. And I know this is going to sound very bizarre for those out there.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: I love this story.
I loved it.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: And during this very, very unique dream, I could smell medicinal plants. And I knew what medicinal flowers would be good for my cups that were injured back at home. And that concept alone is something I had never even thought of. Can animals self medicate? Is it possible that animals in one way or another sense, not necessarily through smell, but sense where what plants harbor certain medicines for certain illnesses. And that led me to, you know, learn more about what we know as the topic of zoo pharmacognosy, which is the study how animals self medicate. How little has been done in that space and only in specific regions of our planet, like Africa and Asia primarily. And how, you know, just kind of leading to questions of the projects that we're starting in the Amazon now. But also made me think about could it be that humans now have that medicinal knowledge of our ancestors because of how they observed animals, because they observe animals going to certain plants to cure themselves and that trigger an inspiration for then the human to go and explore that plant. And yeah, just absolutely fascinating directions in which we are kind of incorporating into an our active science work, but also policy work to kind of guide reforestation and others.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, I love that part because I had not heard of that term either. I'm so glad that you said it out loud before I tried.
I was like reading, I was like.
[00:33:28] Speaker C: Okay, I may be mispronouncing it because.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: I mispronounced a lot of no, that sound. No, that sounded way better than whatever version I was coming up with. And I was like, this is a new term. Oh my gosh, I love this. But yeah, like the example that you gave of the elephants that were watched eating that tree and then to induce labor, and then seeing the Maasai Mara people, the Maasai, like, you know, drinking a tea from that similar plant and then going to labor, you know, within a few days, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's crazy. Or even possibly the jaguar that was tripping the same or gnawing on the same plant, the ayahuasca. Well, one of the plants that makes ayahuasca brew.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: I love reading that makes you wonder because even, even just talking about ayahuasca alone, when you look at the two plants that you need to make what, you know, the cocktail that you need for the ayahuasca to work, they look physically, they physiological, they look very different to one another, and they don't tend to grow next to each other. So how do you go about looking over thousands and thousands of different flora across the Amazon and decide that you're going to combine this single one with this other one? That there's no even like an obvious thing that would lead you to do that combination?
When we look at the statistics of combining that one plant that you started with with all the others to get to that specific result, it just makes no sense numerically. It's just. I don't think it's even possible. So it. Could it be that by looking at animals that we, you know, just kind of guided that journey? I think that's such a big question that not only, you know, creates wonder about the origin of knowledge and medicinal knowledge, but I think it's also, could it be like an untapped potential to help animals? People talk about regenerating animals, you know, diet regenerating, even the microbiome. You know, there's insane now probiotic pills developed for certain animals to help them better, you know, give offspring and so others. But why is not anybody talking about the natural medicines that they already know how to access? To me, it's just kind of wild. And again, you know, what can, what else can we be gathering from, from these observations and be inspired by this indigenous knowledge to help back?
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Yeah, this, uh, this totally sparked a little rabbit hole in my brain, like this thought process of like, because you, you mention it and it's. I think it's so similar, like if we think about where knowledge comes from, from like an oral tradition standpoint, because you mentioned so many like deities that are in animal beings or just like beings in general of the planet and like, how that so well goes along with their biology and I don't. I don't know this. I'm like, trying to talk through my ideas right now, and maybe you can help me. No, I. I think what I'm thinking.
[00:36:20] Speaker C: I think we often, you know, we often say storytelling is the earliest way the two people share knowledge. Of course, my grandmother, she learned. She. So she is. She was born in the Andes, and she did not. Like, she's not a shaman that consumes ayahuasca. There are some shamans that are ayahuasca, so they are leading through ayahuasca and some that don't. My grandma does not. And so she claims that all of her knowledge comes from, you know, acquiring it from the elderly that she grew up with, from her own great grandmother that came from the Amazon and et cetera. So there are examples like that. And that's typically what we think about transmission of medicinal knowledge. But where did that start? It's kind of like the chicken of the egg, you know, like, if we go all the way back, who was the first one? Was it really just like a trial and error? Because that sounds like the worst possible combination. And I'm sure many people had to die for that to even happen. And I even give you another example which I don't think made it to the book, but there was this insane scientific study that look at Neanderthals, okay. And basically was studying the teeth and their residues and were able to distinguish that when certain tooth had a high concentration of what would have caused like a bacterial infection, that we would have hurt those specific teeth. Teeth or two. Sorry. Those specific teeth would have a higher concentration of the active component of aspirin, salicylic acid, which comes from a specific plant. Meaning. Suggesting that that relationship that they have found, it was not just random. The teeth that had the highest amount of this. What it would have been, this bacterial infection had a distincting amount of the component of aspirin. So when it hurt, they consumed this plant. That would help and alleviate. How. How would they have known that? You know, could have just been that certain animals, when they were in pain, were going and chewing on that same leaf, which is. I look at my dog, for example, when I take him to the garden, if he's ever sick, he eats grass. A lot of cats do the same. They know how to purge themselves. We see that actually quite common across the animal kingdom. But let's take it to the next level, right? I think it's just as there's so much that we don't know in that aspect, and I think it also kind of takes us back to a little bit of our own wild as humans we have disconnected so much from our senses now compared to when we used to live one dependent on nature, you know, the same way that animals still maintain such a strong different senses, different to us. So I don't know, I just, I find it fascinating and it just kind of opened this whole aspect of my brain to think about science, but also think what are we missing then also on the, on the component of policy that helps animals back and so forth.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, my mind is reeling right now. And this, this goes like to like why it's so, so, so important for today's like, you know, because we're losing so many cultures and so much traditional stories and how important they are because this like I saw some really cool documentaries not too long ago where it's like talking a lot about, you know, so many traditional stories in general, like across cultures that kind of like just poo pooed aside as like, you know, they're just like stories but actually like that now that they're starting to think about it, there's so much real potential like Earth events that are actually in these like a lot of like are starting to question a lot of biblical stories. Like are these actually talking about real events that happened sometime in past that has been passed down through oral tradition that was then written in, you know, the Bible and like how many of these things then if we're, if that's just one example, like, and you have so many of like, you know, the way that these animals are as they're talked about in like a traditional way, it actually really reflects their, their biology, like their, their spiritual being, like all.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: This kind of stuff.
[00:40:18] Speaker A: And I just, it makes me really concerned if we don't write this stuff down and we get this knowledge and like really protect these cultures, like what is going to happen to all of this?
[00:40:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Passed down from like generations upon generations upon generations of our species. I think it's almost gonna happen if we lose it.
[00:40:36] Speaker C: I see the losing a culture. I see it almost as like deleting part of the humanity's memory, you know, if we allow that to happen. And how can we better act in terms of future or changing realities if we don't understand the past? I just think it's virtually. Then we're trying to reinvent the wheel every single time without taking any lessons. We know for a fact if we talk about a business and trying to do that they would laugh at you because that makes no sense. If there's already proven methods that would work or help you predict and better, you know, prepare for disasters. So it's just kind of wild to me that. Yeah, I love that you. That you say that because we need to. It's not just a culture, it's not just a language that we're losing because a lot of people may like, oh, you know, who cares? No, you connect it to something deeper, which is what it is. And it's so scary. And then I think even, and I definitely do mention this in the book at some point, the legend of the Mapinwari, which is, you know, a legend that has been going throughout the Amazon for a long time, which is this giant creature that just kind of goes around, that is very heavy, very tall, similar to. There's a few, you know, what is it was the equivalent in the U.S. i'm forgetting the name.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: Sasquatch.
[00:41:46] Speaker C: No, the.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Is that the story?
[00:41:48] Speaker C: No, no, no, there.
Foot. What is it called?
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Bigfoot.
[00:41:53] Speaker C: Bigfoot, yeah. Thank you.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Bigfoot. Yeah.
[00:41:56] Speaker C: Okay, okay. Sorry, I didn't know. But anyways, there's so many cultures like stories like that, right? And then over time with science people discovering that there used to be giant sloths in the deep Amazon as well as in the Andes, sloths, you know, that were the height of four to six adult humans standing on top of one another. And the idea that for a long time it was believed that they disappeared in the last age, last ice of age, the same time as many of the large mammals that we used to have in our planet. But then some other discoveries showing that a subgroup of those giants lost had actually made their way by swimming to a small other spaces, where then basically they would have survived for a few other thousands of years, suggesting that they would have crossed paths with human civilization, with people across these jungles. So then it makes you wonder, could it have been that. That is when one of those stories came about, you know, and then had somebody asked that question before or given it to, you know, 2 cents of attention to some of these stories would have wondered, is it true that, you know, this existed before? And of course now we eventually know it and understand also, you know, what the animal landscape looked like in the Amazon back in the day. But God, I think I am not saying that every tale out there is going to be true, but I think it is worth listening because sometimes there is at least some part that comes from something that could be an incredible, incredible discovery. Not for the sake of exploitation, but for the sake of what can we do to protect what we have now and to better prepare for the future.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Wow. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, so many light bulbs going off in my head right now. I asked. I could not agree more. And it just goes to show how important it is to preserve all cultures, like, no matter what it is. And again, this.
I love that. I feel like science is, like, going through kind of an evolution right now, because it used to be so, like, you have to be by the book. You gotta, you know, like, do this way. You have to do science in this way. And I think now that as our generation is starting to get more into, like, leadership roles, we're starting to kind of push back against that. And it's like, no, like, why are we ignoring. Or why has science until now ignored these stories or ignore this traditional knowledge? Like, you know, why.
Why was that never part of the story? And so that's one thing I love that you talk so much about in your book.
[00:44:31] Speaker C: I think what I'll add to that is just that we are, you know, the indigenous voices and people and faces. We have started to see more of it across different platforms, like the United nations and cops and a few other events. Not enough. But we're starting to see more, which is also, you know, translating into a little bit more of social media with incredible now, you know, young leaders across South America that have made it, you know, cool again to be part of their culture, to speak their languages. So I think that is. That's becoming such. It's in. In my mind, it's almost kind of like re. Re shifting this story of feeling proud about your culture, feeling proud about your knowledge. Because unfortunately, something that we did have seen over the years is there's a lot of cultural rejection. Because even in the most remote part of the Amazon, people will know what tree to go too close to or what little hill to go to to get some Internet, and they will have access to TikTok. So I think that's something that we often forget. People want to be like what they see. That is just common for us. You know, somebody's developing from a child to a teenager and so forth. And so I think that led to a lot of cultural rejection of youth not wanting to wear their clothes, learn their language, learn their own traditional knowledge. But then now with those other, you know, figures coming out, and that's why I also make such an effort to do connect still on social media, to kind of show these different faces. And I think, okay, now that's advocacy. That's storytelling. I think we're starting to see the shift in science as well. Because we have indigenous people of course, not just in the Amazon, in Alaska, in different parts of our planet that are now having that opportunity to do attend university, you know, to have that, to not feel like they need to be hiding away their identity, which I think in a way I somehow felt without really knowing as well. And I think it is those voices that are now coming. Could science look a bit different? Could we be asking different questions? Could we be having work collared with not just those indigenous descendants or indigenous people that have had this access to university like I have, but those that perhaps don't have that privilege because unfortunately still a privilege and being able to incorporate them and their perspective in science as well. And I think we're only kind of getting at the start of that. There's only a few examples. If you find scientific literature that have those examples of, you know, co leading or leading by indigenous scientists with partners around the world, there's. I can literally count them with my hand. There's so few. I am so proud that we are part of that few. We have now two scientific articles where the first author is an Ashaninka man from a community, you know, that is becoming such a powerful voice. He's a scientist.
And so I am so excited to see in the next few years what that's going to look like because I think it's going to become such a now basic norm that that is how we also conduct science. And it gives me a lot of hope to see what that would translate to into, you know, talking about protection of our planet, our cultures and so forth.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Yes. It makes me so, so excited like as we were talking before we began in my realm, so I'm in like the conservation tourism realm and like that that topic is just as important there, you know, as it is and now what's starting to become in the sciences. So I think this concept is starting to really infiltrate multiple different fields, especially the ones that are most in touch with like either like cultures or the natural world. I feel like they're coming to light first, which is great because like the more people in different areas think in this way, the more that idea will spread and the more voices that will get out there and more experiences people have and love and respect all cultures from around the world.
So.
[00:48:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: Wow. Okay.
[00:48:23] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: I did not expect that, like this is beautiful thing about long form. I did not.
That was one question that we just like woo, wow. Inspired a lot of different things.
But I would next I really want to talk about your work with stingless bees. So I never heard of stingless bees. I didn't know that this was a thing.
And reading your Beautiful Pair chapter about it and also, you know, seeing a lot of like your Nat Geo work and all that kind of stuff, I was like, these creatures are so freaking cool. I didn't even know they existed. So could you talk about that story? How did stingless bees come into your life and why? Why did you feel like it was so important to put the space spotlight on these creatures for both the Amazon? You all the things. Yes. Teach us about them.
[00:49:12] Speaker C: I have a tiny one right here that's made with tree fibers and dyed with some of the fruits that the bees feed on. Made by the local women.
Yeah. It's an interesting question because I am not an entomologist. So I am not a person that is the most knowledgeable in insects in any way.
Most people, by the way, that I get to speak to, and I'm talking globally because I get to do a lot of public speaking and a lot of conferences, from classrooms to leaders.
I always ask, have you heard of stingless bees? And in a room of 300 people, I may get two people raising their hands. So it is so unknown in a way.
And yet I will say the first thing is stuff. Stingless bees are the oldest bees of our planets. There is science evidence that dates them back to 80 million years ago, from the time of the dinosaurs. So the fact that most of the world doesn't know our oldest bee is still in a way, alive through stingless bees, it just, I think, shows the gaps that we've had in education and in storytelling. And I came to Stingless Bees because when the world shut down for Covid, it was the first time I couldn't go back home.
Since I moved from Peru to pursue my degrees in science. I was completing my PhD and I know that was the case for so many people. They couldn't be with their families. They were away.
And not only could I not be with my family, but I was so used to having the possibility to travel through the different parts of the Amazon up until then that I felt so lost in my connection. I had this weird idea that I would not be connected to nature because I couldn't go to the Amazon. And of course that has changed since then because you can connect with nature anywhere. And that was my own journey. But I reconnected with a lot of my colleagues that I was used to seeing every so often and just kind of engaging, chatting and learning things from them as we're navigating the Amazon.
And I just started to call them up and then saying, like, you know, let's just see how things are going.
And one of them shared with me that he had noticed that stingless bee honey was one of the main ingredients people were using to treat the symptoms of COVID So when the world shut down, most Amazonian communities were in complete isolation. They didn't have access, of course, to the vaccine or medicine, but also not to financial support, not to tourism that brings a lot of the income. They were completely shut down. And so they resorted to what they know, which is traditional medicine. And I basically kind of confirmed this by talking with the different indigenous leaders that I'm connected with throughout different regions. So I'm talking, you know, groups that are not even in. In touch with one another. And everyone was saying the same thing. Stingless bee honey was one of the ingredients that we're using to treat the symptoms of COVID whether it was alone or in combination with other things. And I just became fascinated, one, by that, and two, that at the same time, they were sharing the other diseases that they have traditionally cured or, you know, treated with stingless bee honey, from infertility to eye cataract, to infections, to skin issues, like the range of diseases that they were saying that this one ingredient was helping them with, and that depending on what bee, they basically, depending on the disease, they went to a different stingless bee. So they knew that the stingless bee that nests on this side is the best from eye cataracts and so on. That from a chemical perspective, which is kind of where I come from, with my background, was fascinating. One, surely we know about stingless bee honey chemistry. That was my first kind of thoughts.
And how is it possible that it has all of these applications? Is it true or is it placebo? What is it out there? And I learned really quickly that no one had looked at this question in Peru something so simple, again, because they were not listening to the local people, or nobody had made the connection, or nobody had approached it from a chemical perspective. Who knows?
And with my colleague, we said, well, let's do it. He had a small amount of funding still available from his in research institute. And I had the knowledge. So we said, all right, let's. Let's go ahead and conduct the study. So we ended up leading the first chemical analysis on stingless bee honey in Peru. And I was looking. I was the one looking at all the data. And this is very still preliminary because it was A small number of samples. We had limited funding. We only did it on two species that we had access to at the time. And this kind of work needs a lot more, you know, in depth follow up, which we are now starting to do finally because we couldn't get the funding. Ever since that time, since we first did it until now, that I saw tentatively. Each of these samples had hundreds, not just tens, hundreds of unique medicinal molecules that were known to have impact in a, impact as anti inflammatory, as antioxidants, even as like anti cancer and just a variety of, of properties that were described in other places. Some of those chemicals that we tentatively identified were known to be produced by plants and a lot of them happened to be in the regions where we were getting the samples from. So a lot of things made sense. The bees are going to collect nectar from these plants. But some also have only been described that are made by microbes. So that kind of open a new question. Could it be the microbes that are living within the bees? Blah, blah, blah. But that is how I came to stingless bees. And I was only meant to work on stingless bees for that project.
And I just fell in love with them because of what they mean to local people and what they mean to the Amazon and how invisible they've been for so long. And yet to me they are the key species that has the potential to save the Amazonian forest as well as to save cultural knowledge and, and to inspire like well functioning communities that I just could not look away. And we had an incredible project with National Geographic that led to kind of a photo that went viral. Even then that was not enough. I said what else can we do and progress in the years we've had a law created that was based on our science that for the first time recognizes stingless bees as the native species of Peru and calls for their protection and their promotion.
You know, we've been able to put out so much scientific work, have expanded the research with different partners, national and internationals on all aspects of bees.
But yeah, I think ultimately just seeing that relationship, the fact that a lot of the communities develop such a close bond with stingless bees, although they're so tiny and you know, some of them are so docile and so I'm going to call them quiet. They're buzzing really loudly, but quiet in the sense that they are not, they don't get attention and then they are literally the main pollinator that we have. It just made me fall in love with them, you know, until now.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: That is amazing. Yeah, because again, I Hadn't heard of them before.
And where exactly are they all located? So I guess from more from like a biological standpoint, like, what is a stingless B and how is it more applicable to all of us? Are they only found in Peru? I think you mentioned this might be a couple other places. Yeah, but, yeah, why. Why should we care outside of just, you know, like Peru and potential. Like the.
[00:57:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:08] Speaker A: Medicinal things. Yeah, yeah, those kinds of things.
[00:57:11] Speaker C: Interestingly, because the. The discovery that makes us understand that these are the oldest bees on our planet. That was from a fossilized tree resin that was found in what is now known as New York. So 80 million years ago, stingless bees were all the way that, you know, up north in our planet. So they would have been really, I would assume, all around because of the climate that was so different back then. Now you find them all around our tropics. So if you follow the equator line, you will find stingless bees. That includes Mexico, where they have a long, rich history in terms of culture. Costa Rica, the jungles of Africa, Asia, Australia, and the Amazon.
From what we know.
And I say that because I am convinced there is a lot more new species out there. We know about 500 unique species.
They all look very different to one another, too. Some are as tiny as ants, some are as big as bumblebees. The colors vary. So the one that I have here, you know, it has a typical pattern of bees that we honeybees that we see.
But I've seen some that their bodies are entirely black, some that their bodies are entirely green, like, absolutely gorgeous.
And from that biodiversity, we have almost 200 unique species in the Peruvian north Amazon alone. Even just in the last trip that I just came back from, like a week and a half ago that was exploring stingless bees in the central Peruvian Amazon, we are combined, Vince, we may have found new species of sting.
[00:58:41] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:58:41] Speaker C: That is how. Yeah, hopefully we'll see. We'll see with the results. But it seemed to indicate that there's a high chance.
Why should we be. Should we be caring? I mean, I think. I'm sure a lot of people have seen out there the facts of bees pollinate two out of three fruit, three foods that you have on your table. So two out of three foods that you literally get in the grocery shop that you're eating every day depend on bees. But most of the world has only focused on honeybees, the stinging kind that originate from Europe and Asia. In fact, up until our work to get this law created, even Peru only recognized legally and Only talked about the honeybee that is not native to our country.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: That's crazy.
[00:59:29] Speaker C: That is crazy exactly. Because a lot of our leaders just didn't know about stingless bees because of how little information there is out there. Why should we care about bees in general?
Well, first of all, do you want to eat? And two, you know, we are already seeing the price of produce has increased so much in different parts of the world. Part of that for climate change. But a lot of that is because the pollinators are dying. Bees are dying. And so if bees are dying, we literally lose crops. And so the farmers. And there was a big news piece that came out in cbs, I think, in the US just recently, that this year has been the year that most beekeepers have reported losing thousands and thousands of bees, with one beekeeper reporting he used to keep 20,000 hives and now he only has a thousand.
So, oh, my gosh, all the crops that are dependent on bees are suffering. So next time you complain about food cost, think about bees. So now, just putting that into context. Stingless bees are the native, are the original pollinators of our planet. They are around the tropics, which is where we get so many of the products that we consume, you know, every single day, globally. And so when we realize how little scientific information there is out there about stingless bees, how little information there was about their medicinal honey, how little recognition they got in terms of policy or commercialization, my mind just raced to think, what are we doing? We're talking about protecting our planet. We're talking about regenerating the rainforest. We're talking about reforestation. So much money is going into regeneration projects. But if you are not including the most important native pollinator to the regions in which you are working, I do not know how you reach sustainability with that. You can put a million dollars and have a project die in one year without if you do not include stingless bees, in my opinion. So I think everybody should be caring. Also, our temperatures are increasing, undoubtedly very sadly. And when we look at the little amount of data that is out there in terms of prediction, stingless bees are very resilient, which is something we are seeing with our work. So I think we need to turn into stingless bees because they will have the ability to fight better than other bees in our planet. So talking about the future and the future of food and the future, even of medicine, in a way, we need to be focusing on stingless bees.
[01:01:56] Speaker A: Wow. That is.
I mean, the resiliency part alone. Yeah, like that is huge. Since that is like a big question right now is like, you know, what animals are going to be able to adapt and what can't. What plants can adapt, what can't. And so that is, I mean, even.
[01:02:11] Speaker C: From that discovery of 80 million years ago, the current modern like cousin, most closely related to that one that was found from 80 million years ago, lives in the Amazon. So they literally, they can show their adaptability throughout all these great changes in our planet. Right. And so I think we need more people and more countries to be. Start. Look. To start looking at stingless bees.
[01:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I loved reading that chapter in your book and like in the discovery and like the photo and like the moment and all those things. And one thing I was wondering as I was reading your book, because for those who haven't read it yet, one thing that I love, love, love about it is you match a traditional plant, or the stingless bee in that case, with its modern science use, with the way it is used in a traditional way. And then also you tie it with an expedition that you've done.
And I wanted to know, how did you do that? How did you decide how to weave all of these stories together to tell a very beautiful story per chapter? Because every chapter is different, which is also really cool. That's why I learned so much from you. So how did you decide what expedition to tell, the example of which cultural story, the deities, all the stuff. How did you go about that in your brain to put together this book?
[01:03:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I decided first. So first of all, you're talking about the pharmacopoeia section.
And I think that was something that I had in. So basically at the beginning of each chapter, I have one section where I highlight one natural resource. And I did the drawing actually myself. And I put something. Yeah.
Where I put traditional use and scientific information. So just a small blurb that kind of teaches people about biodiversity and. And plants that they may have never heard of.
I wanted to do that. I think it's just like a node, to my grandma's knowledge, because I did always envision that the book had to have a connection that is constant to natural medicine, because that is how I came to be interested in biology in the first place, by observing my grandmother use so many different natural medicinal plants.
And so that was my way. I didn't know how that would connect to the rest. I just knew I wanted to have that in my structure. And then I noticed that I think I was getting gravitated to certain ones that would make me think so a certain Flower or a certain fruit was reminding me of a few moments in a specific expedition or maybe in a few different expeditions and just kind of bringing me back. So I said, oh, wow, okay, then let's make sure that whichever fruit or plant is selected for this chapter, that it has some sort of connection there. So that was one way. But some chapters came really easy, like the Stingless Beast, because we've had so much work ever since. But that first encounter of me posing with beast for four hours and the actual challenges of what that is, I think that was just one.
Yeah, I think that was just inherently in my head what it had to be. A few others into the high altitude Amazon, for example, that also just came very natural because there were specific stories, stories I wanted to make sure they came through at some point. Others were a bit more difficult because I mean, things just don't happen in such a linear way, right? Sometimes it's just kind of spread around. And sometimes I take certain things for granted because I grew up with them. For me, it's normal to see pink dolphins in the Amazon River. For me it's normal to observe something. And it's not like I'm not stopping to have wonder for it. But I'm like, okay, that's great. I may not even think to tell it to others. And I really think it was my husband who helped me kind of slow down when I was freaking out. I don't know how to put this together. You know, this is just gonna be too much or too little.
And then he just reminded me to slow down because most people don't even, you know, have never even seen some of these wildlife have. They've never grown up with it.
They don't even have that first encounter yet. So I think I made it purposefully to go in my head to wherever expedition that will come to my brain. And then just think very slowly what happened in a single day and what are the things that perhaps I rush through in my head? Cause it's like we need to get to A to B to do whatever. And those two hours in the boat kind of show to others what that is like. Because ultimately what the book wants to do is rekindle what we have lost. Rekindle that connection between people and nature and rekindle the sense of joy and the sense of play and like, wow. Sense. Every time, even now I'm a child, when you take me somewhere outdoors, I'm going to be like, wow, that's so cool. Or like, wow, that's so gorgeous. And you know I may say it out loud or not, but I'm just in such awe. Even if I'm walking in a street that is busy in a city and I just happen to see a cute bear, I'm like a will, stop. That is just how I've grown up. And I wanted to share that because I understand that's not the natural norm for most people.
So, yeah, some were just about slowing down and writing down. What are the things that I remember seeing, trying to go through photos and videos and then seeing if I could connect that in a way that adds this science and add these cultural stories that most people wouldn't have heard of.
[01:07:37] Speaker A: And you just brought a key word here. That leads to my next question that I want to ask you, and we can spend some time on it if you would like, because it's, it's a deep, personal one. And I feel like in today's age, we have lost so much connection with everything, with natural world, with each other, with people.
And I was trying to think about why. I know a lot of people say social media, a lot like this, this, and this, we're all moving to cities, but I think it might be more fundamental than that.
And, like, how many of us are, you know, descendants of immigrants. Like, we no longer have, like, a strong connection to land, to the landscape around us. We no longer have our tribes. We are all so separate. And I think a lot of us are looking for that. And I know that I'm included in this. Like, I know I, I, I know that my ancestors come from at least four different places. And, like, and if you look at me and my sisters, we all look wildly different so that you can tell that there's, like, we're some crazy mutts of things.
And even me, who I feel like I have a good connection with nature. I feel like there's still so much that I am personally seeking from a deep personal connection level. And I don't think I'm the only one. And at first I thought I was gonna find it through science and studying the world in that way, but then I almost feel like it pushed me out further in a way, because it was forcing me to remove any emotions and any of that personal connection.
And, like, I think that is what a lot of us are seeking the most. So I want to ask you, for those of us who might be feeling that way, where we don't have that connection, we don't have these beautiful, incredible indigenous roots that you've been talking about. You know, like, watching your grandmother, who knows These plants, almost like they're part of her soul. Like, it was so wonderful just the way you talked about her.
What should those of us who are looking for that type of connection do? How can we possibly regain it in, like, a thoughtful, respectable way without, you know, like, you know, there's, like, some people that are, you know, trying to almost steal traditional, cultural, religious ceremonies, something like that? Like, I'm not talking about that, but what do you think that we could do to maybe regain some of that connection to nature?
[01:10:01] Speaker C: You've. You've put it in such a beautiful and profound way, by the way. Thank you. Like, I wish to definitely look back to the recording and capture what you've said, because that's so beautifully put. What I will say is that that is not exclusive to you or a few that identify with that. I think that includes us all in terms of that sense.
And I think I only. At least from my personal standpoint, I only realize that you're right.
The compartmentalization we've done over our lives, where it's like, as individuals and I am succeeding, I'm working for my own success, and I am just kind of looking this way in a square way in terms of everything else, of life, in terms of joy, in terms of wonder, in terms of relationships. I felt like that heavily when I was in my PhD. I felt like I had. I didn't know it. I was not aware of it, but I had disconnected, not just physically from my family, but because I was already away from home for quite a long time. It was already, you know, six years in the U.S. or seven, doing all my studies. But I felt it the most there because I think I just kind of became almost part of, like, the. The war culture that was around me, where you have this goal. And it's a very materialistic, in the sense, not necessarily for money, in the sense for a degree or for a specific thing that I neglected everything else, whether it's taking time to enjoy the outdoors or taking time to understand what's going on in me, and completely, in a way, forgetting my own indigenous roots, not just by virtue that I was far away. And I think the moment that Covid hit and I felt so.
I don't want to use the word anxious. I don't know what it was. I felt so stressed by the idea that I could. Couldn't be outdoors. How am I, in my mind, I literally remember thinking this. How am I going to figure out how I'm feeling or feel, like, connected again if I'm not going back to the Amazon. How am I going to have time to think about my things in life and figure out my relationship? I had this weird idea that I wouldn't. That I couldn't figure those things out unless I was deep, deep in the jungle. Because I have had that privilege of being able to go that deep and being physically disconnected to the Internet and to other, other things of work.
And I think. And it was that question that in a way kind of made me stop and recognize I have grown up with a specific way to see the world through my grandmother. And I have lost it. I have moved away from it in a way, whether it was on purpose or not. And I don't need to be going to these deep, remote places to find that connection. I need to find a way to be able to do it where I was, which was in cold winter of Michigan away and doing, you know, a degree in a university.
And it was, I think, that journey of understanding how am I going to do. I felt so incapable of doing that. I felt so that I didn't have the resources. And I think that is to some extent how a lot of people do feel.
Because they feel like they don't have the community, they don't have the group, they don't have the resources, or they don't have the support, maybe even within their families or they don't have, et cetera. So I think we look so often at the things that we don't have to try to answer that. When I think we find that deep connection to our wild, to many ways. Some people find it through music, some people find it to physically be in the outdoors. And I think at least what I'm trying to do with all these stories is just that by virtue of that connection with nature, it is one of those beautiful ways which we can reconnect with that, that we all feel we have lost, but ultimately we haven't because we are literally descendant from nature. So we all have that core sense of joy and purpose when we tap back into. And I think one of the most powerful ways I have to. To describe that, that was really useful for me because I do. I'm often in Peru and in the Amazon, but I am also very often. I mean, just recently I came back straight in. I was in London the next day. I'm going to LA and New York soon. I'm just kind of all over. And I'm also, I feel like now a mix of different cultures and I am a mix of different languages and different communities. Right, I understand what you mean because I feel it too, even though I have this strong connection. And I think that's virtue of everyone living in this wild, interconnected world, for better or for worse.
One of the conversations I had with one of my indigenous friends and leaders was really transformative because they basically, and this is chapter one, I think of my book where I describe that for them to honor nature is to live beautifully.
So for them to be in sync and happy with everything around them is to live beautifully. That means pausing between the work activities. That means making sure you're drinking enough while you're working that ensure that means taking time to put a fire out around your community, like to put a fire, sorry, a bonfire in your community and dancing around and let all the kids also sing and dance around. That means for these specific men that I was talking with, making sure he has time to go fishing whenever, you know, in the mornings when he finds the most peace.
So taking care of the self is also a way, how they describe to live beautifully with nature. And to me that was such a transformational aspect because I think even I, you know, similar to you, we are in the heavy conservation work and it is so self sacrificing sometimes. And sometimes we think we need to be giving everything in a way that's the capitalist perspective of we need to sacrifice everything to achieve something, whether whichever area we are. But we forget that is that self connection. And to me that was just one of the most transformational perspectives. And just remembering that that is also part of humans and nature. Natures are human, which we hear often, but we don't often necessarily connect that, that that means taking care of ourselves too.
And so I think I would just urge people to find what that means. I find it literally taking the, allowing myself to be as child as I want to, whenever I'm looking at flowers, every time I'm doing any walk, no matter what my husband knows, I will be like, oh my God, look at that. I'll take my time and I don't care if I like look silly. I find some so much joy in that because it makes me think like, God, it's just so beautiful no matter where you are. Even if I hear so many people batter the UK saying we have lost so much biodiversity and it's such a negative angle. And I am not disagreeing with that. We know the numbers, but the flowers that arise throughout the seasons here are gorgeous. God, I think it just gives you so much hope that there is so much beauty out there. And I think we can find that in many other ways. You know, if it's somebody taking the time to go to the ocean, because that is why. Where they find that kind of sense of groundedness. I think it's taking the time to even figure out what that looks like for everybody. That is so key. And we are in such a need for. As a planet too.
[01:17:34] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. Live beautifully.
That.
That just like hit really hard. Like, I think, I mean, not that you can see, but I do have a lot of tattoos. I was like, is that going to be the inspiration of the next one?
Just like, as a reminder to myself, because I actually have a lot of quotes like that, you know, with surrounded trying to remind myself those things that these like, little hearts of wisdom. And actually I have this one right here.
It's called Ichilmogen. And when I wrote the Patagonia series, it's from the Mapuchi people down in Patagonia. And it means the interconnectedness of all life that like, all life is connected and that is the way that they lived. And so now this is like another one. Like, live beautifully like every. You know, take care of yourself. Take care of your.
Oh, it's just such great advice. And I, like, I need to remind myself. Myself that I think is also. I. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are going through kind of their own spiritual things right now. Post Covid. We've all gone through really hard things. And sometimes I'm like, I have boss babed way too hard.
What am I doing?
Like, like, maybe I just need to pump the brakes a little bit. But then I'm just like. But then like you said, then that's like those thoughts like, why am I not working harder? I need to like, sacrifice more. And then it's like, what sacrifice is enough? And then this constant personal struggle. And sometimes I'm just like, I just want to go smell a flower.
[01:19:05] Speaker C: Like, I think that is just such a. It's such a.
It's such a constant, right? I don't think it's a seeking and I have found it and I have it forever. It's such a constant. It's the same way I feel like ever since I hit 30, I cannot just work out one time and that's it for a few months. I need to be constantly working out for my body to stay a certain way. In my 20s, I could get away with it. I would work out once, and I'm good for four months. I don't know what I was thinking. And that is not the same, right? Because we were joking about this with my husband recently. So I think I see it in a similar way because I do have to remind myself, you know, I. I love my work so much, and sometimes it's so. So intense, and I forget about myself. And then it's like, live beautifully, whatever that means. And also given ourselves, Ourselves permission for that to mean whatever we want it to mean. Because everybody out there is telling you what to think, is telling you what to feel, is telling you what to connect to that. If we just do honor for our own selves, we will appear with more kindness. We will show as kind people, which means we will take better decisions for our community, for our families, for our work, you know, for everything out there. And I think when we are kind to ourselves, we also want to be kind to the trees around and to the ocean and to the animals. And so I think there are many, many perspectives out there. Everybody should be learning as much as possible from many of them. But I think, yeah, we don't often hear about, you know, just being kind to us is something we have forgotten. That I do think is also a way that we will do better for our planet.
[01:20:39] Speaker A: Yes. And I think that is the perfect note to end this on, because that sums up pretty much your whole entire book. And, like, that is, like, the main message that I got from this, like, thank you. Everything, I mean, even from the beauty of the COVID cover art, to the way it's written, to the way you're able to connect all the stories together to. I mean, I feel like I'm connected to the Amazon now, and I have not stepped a foot into the heart of it, and I've traveled quite a lot, and I have not had the chance to go to, like, the heart of the Amazon. So. But I feel like I have a deeper connection with it because of your book. So with that, Rosa, if anybody wants to get the book, we are dropping this on the day it lands in the US it is already in other markets around the world. But how can somebody get the book? Follow you? Follow your amazing work, Your organizations. Yeah, tell us.
[01:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah, they cover the art. Cover is actually a painting. It's acrylic painting from a Peruvian Amazonian artist.
So it's not digital. You know, it's quite exciting.
But people can get it in the digital and audio formats anywhere you get your books.
I recorded the voice myself, which was a funny challenge because I mispronounced so many English words, even now.
And then. The physical hardcover book will be available to order online. It will be in some Barnes and Nobles, in some Target shops and hopefully will be in independent bookshops. I know it's there's a link for independent bookshops to be able to order it and, and I cannot wait to hear what people think, you know. So please, I'm trying to engage with online as much as I can. So if people get to read it and have some thoughts, please do share it with me on social media.
You can find me as Rosa Via Espinosa. I handle my own social media so I try to read as much as I can as healthy as as I can keep it, of course.
And my organization is called Amazon Research International.
You can find us on social media as well through my own bio.
You can support even with sharing the information with sharing about the book as well because it supports me to be able to keep doing what I'm doing.
If you ever have the option to support in any other way through materials or even donating to the organization directly, we make sure that that goes 100% to the communities we're working with to advance the science and to hopefully have more indigenous youth that are leading scientific work too.
[01:23:02] Speaker A: Yes. And everybody, if you love book clubs, this is our current read. Right now we are reading this book.
So everyone, we announced it last month and then people who wanted to get the digital copies and if they want want the hardback, it is officially available everywhere. So again, Rosa, you're amazing. Thank you for connecting, for sitting down with me today. I'm so happy to be just a little part of your beautiful journey. I'm so glad you wrote this book and yeah, I can't wait to see.
[01:23:29] Speaker B: What you do next.
[01:23:30] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Brooke. Thank you. You were absolutely wonderful. I love the questions. I've never got any like some of them and I really appreciated that. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
[01:23:43] Speaker B: Wow, what an incredible conversation with Rosa. Gosh, we covered so much ground today. And if this conversation inspired you, definitely pick up her book, the Spirit of the Rainforest. It's available everywhere. You get your books as of today here in the US and you can find in digital, audiobook and hardcover formats.
It's our current book club read. So if you want to join our community discussion, head on over to the website and sign up for the club. We'd love to have you speaking of supporting the show, if you enjoyed this episode. The best way to help us out is by leaving a rating, a review wherever you listen to podcast. It really does make a huge difference in helping other people discover these conversations. And if you're able to support us financially, you can make a donation through our website.
Every bit helps us keep bringing you these in depth conversations with incredible people like Rosa. And hey, if all this talk about connecting with nature has you feeling even more inspired, we still have spaces available on our Patagonia export expedition next year.
Sometimes the best way to reconnect is just to go do it, you know?
Thanks for listening and I will see you next time on Rewadology.
